The Icon Bar: More trouble for VirtualAcorn (updated)

More trouble for VirtualAcorn (updated)

More trouble is brewing for VirtualAcorn after John Kortink has found that the VA CD comes with some of his Shareware without his consent.

John, author of utilities such as Translator, Creator, PackDir and creator of the Viewfinder graphics card, is a little upset at the inclusion of software that requires his approval before being included with other products. Although VA have offered to remove the offending software - Translator, Creator and Earthmap - from future releases, they did not initially issue a recall or scrap the latest batch of CDs. If they didn't, John was talking about a criminal lawsuit on the advice of his lawyer.

This comes just after the release of v1.10 of the software (and hence, probably a new batch of CDs), and Paul Middleton's continued attack on emulators in the Foundation newsletter of 8th February.

Update: the current batch of CDs have now been scrapped.

Source: Usenet

More trouble for VirtualAcorn (updated)

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Guest

Message #90207, posted at 09:00, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90206

Unregistered user

When RISCOS gets ANYWHERE neer the number of features that windows has embedded in the OS you think the teams of RISC OS experts (thats a joke by the way) will make it right first time? Without any service packs?

Let me point this out - sick to death of hearing how small RISCOS is in comparison to Windows. "Ewwww that Windows is sooo big... blah blah crap" RISCOS is small cause theres balls all to it. If it had the number of features that Windows has do you think it would stay small?

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Guest

Message #90208, posted at 12:23, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90207

Unregistered user

Well put that man!

By the way, the service packs are already there, in the form of incremental version number revisions eg 4.00, 4.01, 4.02 etc. So fear not, the bugs are already there for your displeasure.

Mike

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John Hoare

Message #90209, posted at 13:28, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90208

Unregistered user

Yuck. Slag off RISC OS compared to Linux if you have to, but Windows? I find it completely unusable apart than from web browsing and games...

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Mr Jake Monkeyson

Message #90210, posted at 13:35, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90209

Unregistered user

Windows used to be technically inferior than RISC OS but sold better. Now that RISC OS is technically inferior, shouldn't we expect sales to increase???

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Guest

Message #90211, posted at 17:01, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90210

Unregistered user

No, because the marketing is crap and the price far too high.

Mike

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Guest

Message #90212, posted at 19:20, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90211

Unregistered user

"Yuck. Slag off RISC OS compared to Linux if you have to, but Windows? I find it completely unusable apart than from web browsing and games..."

Only the two most popular activities for home computing these days, I would think.

"Windows used to be technically inferior than RISC OS but sold better. Now that RISC OS is technically inferior, shouldn't we expect sales to increase???"

Windows had what's known as "momentum", meaning that more and more developers were writing for it, lots of effort was being put into marketing and selling it (rather than only having it available at some obscure dealer somewhere), and it ran on commodity hardware. I don't see RISC OS being in that kind of position now.

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John Hoare

Message #90213, posted at 21:13, 27/2/2002, in reply to message #90212

Unregistered user

"Only the two most popular activities for home computing these days, I would think."

True. But not what I spend the majority of my time at home doing. Which is why I use RISC OS. Besides, Linux can cope with the browsing - when I sort out my own Linux box, I'll have to decide whether to install Windows purely for games - the only thing I would use it for.

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Guest

Message #90214, posted at 21:45, 28/2/2002, in reply to message #90213

Unregistered user

What about other essential parts of computing such as:

Printing.

There isn't one single NEW printer that works on RISC OS *PROPERLY* (meaning - as the manufacturer intended). Most of the printers only work at 600DPI and without even the function to clean the heads on RISC OS because of lacking drivers. Then you have to pay £70 - THATS SEVENTY POUNDS, let me type this again to be clear - !SEVENTY POUNDS! for one floppy disc containing photo drivers that are inferior to the drivers that the printers come shipped with anyway. This cannot be taken seriously. Hello? £70? You can keep them my friend!

Scanning.

Well Epson and most other brands have ditched both SCSI and parallel in favour of USB. And that means RISCOS is screwed yet again. Enjoy the quality of that well known brand - Mustek. Oh dear. Not to mention the extra £50 on Imagemaster/Twain needed to make them do anything at all.

Software

I needn't say anything at all here really - if you can't see the reality on this point then you are a lost cause, blinded by an over patriotic obsession.

Its getting worse, we're looking like idiots with less and less to back up our computing choice as time goes by.

PS. Little story. I spoke to a fellow RISC OS user just last week who was advising me against buying windows on the basis that it was unstable, the OS was a nightmare to use and he himself had been attacked whilst on a windows machine after being on the net less than 5 minutes not too long ago. Then at the end of the conversation he slipped up without realising and said "I've always done everything I ever wanted from a computer on RISC OS. I've never used Windows once, and never will after everything I've heard about it". You know, that told me an awfull lot about anti-MS RISC OS users.

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Rich Mackin

Message #90215, posted at 00:26, 1/3/2002, in reply to message #90214

Unregistered user

"Well Epson and most other brands have ditched both SCSI and parallel in favour of USB. And that means RISCOS is screwed yet again. Enjoy the quality of that well known brand - Mustek. Oh dear. Not to mention the extra £50 on Imagemaster/Twain needed to make them do anything at all."

That can extend to pretty much any USB device, and FireWire too. Not only do we have an outdated, limited OS, the hardware isn't up to much either. Acorn used to be streets ahead in hardware terms, but now... how long has it been since the StrongARM?

Sadly, I can see RISC OS going the way of the Amiga, if it isn't happening already.

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John Hoare

Message #90216, posted at 10:29, 1/3/2002, in reply to message #90215

Unregistered user

"You know, that told me an awfull lot about anti-MS RISC OS users"

No. What that tells you is about one *specific* RISC OS user - you can't generalise on that basis. True, it probably applies to more, and you've probably had more experience of the same thing, but you need to supply more evidence.

My original comment still stands - RISC OS does pretty much everything I want it to at the moment, but if I needed anything else I'd use Linux, not Windows. Because I find Windows yuck to use.

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Guest

Message #90217, posted at 12:30, 1/3/2002, in reply to message #90216

Unregistered user

Rich Mackin: "That can extend to pretty much any USB device, and FireWire too. Not only do we have an outdated, limited OS, the hardware isn't up to much either. Acorn used to be streets ahead in hardware terms, but now... how long has it been since the StrongARM?"

There was a certain point when the advantages of proprietary, non-commodity hardware were overturned, and after that point it just became impossible for relatively small manufacturers to keep up. Acorn's real window of opportunity was probably between 1986 and 1992 - after that period, Acorn were arguably only competitive in increasingly lower-end parts of the market. Indeed, had they released the A7000(+) at the same price as the BBC Model B or even the Electron, they could have stuck around until today. People still like the idea of the inexpensive computer - consider the buzz that was generated when Sir Clive openly wondered about doing a successor to the ZX81.

"Sadly, I can see RISC OS going the way of the Amiga, if it isn't happening already."

It's arguably happened. Hardware vendor support is probably comparable in some countries (I can imagine that there are Amiga clone makers still doing business), and with decent, quality brand-name PCs starting at 500 quid, any Acorn clone that could be considered competitive would need to start at 200 quid.

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Rich Mackin

Message #90218, posted at 00:59, 2/3/2002, in reply to message #90217

Unregistered user

IIRC, Amigas (and the related Atari ST) still have a cult following in Germany and some other European countries. New hardware is appearing, for instance AmigaOS is IIRC migrating over to the PowerPC, using either emulation or 2nd CPUs to emulate the old 68K. Unless we get some new (and decent!) hardware soon, and both ROL and the manufacturers try to push into new markets, that's the way the RISC OS scene will go - a VERY small group (even smaller than it is now) with little commercial development. To be honest, the Commodore 64 scene is about as alive as the Amiga... I'd hate to see RISC OS go the same way, but I can see it happening, and sooner than we think.

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Annraoi

Message #90219, posted at 19:54, 2/3/2002, in reply to message #90218

Unregistered user

I largely work on the PC, both s/w support, database admin type stuff. I also use RISC OS.

In my humble opinion some Windows implementations get closer to being reasonably useable than others. To say ANY are stable and uniformly useable is (on the other hand) a nonsense. Generally each generation of Windows starts off bug-ridden, after the 2nd or 3rd release (12 to 18 months) get's it almost right - then to boost profit MS junk it and launch a new (buggy) version and the cycle repeats.

Windows 95 came in several flavours including bug fixes and the addition of USB (OSR 2).

Windows NT 4 had a number of Service Packs (SP1,2,3,4,5,6 and 6a) to fix some minor and MAJOR errors.

Windows 2K Professional had SP1 and 2 (the latter fixing a bug where shutting off the machine would leave some of the cache unwritten to disk - hence frequently requiring a complete reinstall (I had to do it 3 times before acquiring SP2, even the ERD failed to fix the problems).

There are heaps of sites that list fixes, patches and stuff for windows. There are piles of sites that list errata in processors and chipsets.

Simply saying that because RISC OS has deficiencies that (therefore) Windows is better is errant non-sense. Windows works (or fails) in its own right, and it largely fails. It is an insecure, unstable, overpriced, buggy system that requires ever increasing hardware resources just to maintain a reasonable level of performance.

The purpose of Windows is to TIE you to MS products and services - that is it's only purpose. It removes your choice to use certain software (just as in the famous case where Digital Research's DOS was checked for by windows and windows would complain - so as to deter users from choosing DR-DOS)

RISC OS has difficiencies, but I can buy two copies of RISC OS for one full copy of WindowsXP. And neither ROL or Pace make exaggerated promises about its ability to perform - can the same be said about Windows - I think Not.

Regards

Annraoi

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Guy Inchbald

Message #90220, posted at 20:24, 2/3/2002, in reply to message #90219

Unregistered user

Rich Makin said, "Well Epson and most other brands have ditched both SCSI and parallel in favour of USB."
Stuart Tyrrell, are you reading this? I'm sure if you made the dongle, others would write the drivers.

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Richard Goodwin

Message #90221, posted at 22:16, 2/3/2002, in reply to message #90220

Unregistered user

Stuart's a bit busy ATM, if I get clearance to publish the press release soon you'll see why.

The USB card's already finished - see http://www.iconbar.com/news/RO2001/index.html - but it sounds like getting drivers to run on it, well, I've heard one developer complain that they had one to write their own drivers but quality drivers just weren't appearing so they gave up. :(

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Rich Mackin

Message #90222, posted at 02:21, 3/3/2002, in reply to message #90221

Unregistered user

"Rich Makin said, "Well Epson and most other brands have ditched both SCSI and parallel in favour of USB." "

That was Guest #647,291 ;op

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Guest

Message #90223, posted at 23:33, 3/3/2002, in reply to message #90222

Unregistered user

I really can't see what you guys see in Acorn anymore. I will kill your poor computer in three easy ways:

1. Can your Acorn play high-end computer games like Half Life, Max Payne? (You may start shouting that not everyone wants to be able to do this, but nevertheless it would draw people towards an OS/Computer.

2. Can your Acorn play MP3's? ("The latest RiscStations came packaged with an MP3 player!!" I hear you cry, but think, "How well does it actually play that MP3", then ask yourself this question to yourself again [seriously])

3. Can your Acorn view the majority of web pages out there, with flash interactivity and multi-task pages, and broadband capability?

If the answer is "No" to all three of the questions, then I'm afraid RiscOS or Acorn have no real fututre in Information Systems/Computing.

If the answer is "No, but..." then I, nor the rest of the world want to hear it. I've used RiscOS & Acorn machines a million times and everytime I go back to it I can never understand why you people insist on trying to keep alive a dead product...

Just my thoughts on the whole issue.

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Guest

Message #90224, posted at 23:46, 3/3/2002, in reply to message #90223

Unregistered user

Kind of hit the nail on the head there, Guest. I guess people are just keeping alive a dream of what could have been.

Would you mind letting us know who you are?

Mike

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Guest

Message #90225, posted at 00:01, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90224

Unregistered user

Annroi, or whatever your name is, open your eyes and see the real picture for one minute. If you seriously believe that RISCOS is still better than modern OS's after next to no development for 10 years then you are as diluded as they come.

Microsoft has bugs in their OS, and this is hardly surprising considering the size or complexity of windows. Is it acceptable? Well, if you want to use outsanding software packages then yes. It's a toss up, great software on an OS that has admitted (admitting is not something that the RISCOS community seems to be able to do btw) bugs when they arrise (which are actively worked out) or a more stable OS with amateur written, low quality software. But you know, RISCOS users blow things out of proportion. Windows does not crash anywhere neer as many times as they say.

Actually whilst you touched upon the subject of claiming things to the public that are untrue, lets try some out yeah?

Scenario - You are a person in the market for your first computer and you approach a dealer that sells either just acorns, or acorns and PCs. This is what your likely to hear:

RISCOS is easier to use.
There is a large software selection available.
RISCOS is more stable than Windows.
RISCOS doesn't get viruses.

This is what you WONT hear, AND WILL ONLY FIND OUT AFTER YOU HAVE BOUGHT A RISKOS COMPUTER.

The software for RISCOS is years out of date.
The entertainment software is even worse.
RISCOS doesn't support hardly any new printers.
RISCOS doesn't support hardly any new scanners.
RISCOS struggles with most new CDROMRWs.
USB devices are unlikely to work on RISCOS.
RISCOS isn't very good on the internet.
RISCOS hardware costs are over inflated, usually for worse specc'd equipment than the PC variants.
You may have to pay the best part of £100 for a printer driver.

These things will be swiftley skirted round by the dealer who will very quickly get on their high horse when you complain about the above lackings that you find out for yourslef. (sounds like I have first hand knowledge doesn't it?).

Deny that lot with proof - I dare you.

Why is it on my PC I can enjoy lookng at websites that don't appear correctly on RISCOS, enjoy quicker processing, tops gfx and audio software, new hardware innovations such as firewire and USB, can play and encode MP3's as a background task in seconds, play smooth cool games, and the list truely goes on, but wait for it - without crashes? (and less than the price of a 56/64Mhz R7500 lol) Am I a one off in the whole world that has a stable windows computer? No, I know lots and lots of people who also have stable PC's - FACT.

The real truth is that with so many PCs across the planet and country, you will allways know someone - even many - with PC probs. It's just a proportion of the MILLIONS of PC's out there. I know lots of Acorn users that have had moreso buggy RISKOS computers than my PC.

But we don't hear about them do we? Nooo. Also, funny how people spent hundreds and hundreds on PC emulators for their RISC PC's isn't it. And why, if Windows was so bad, did you need that? Because it did something RISCOS could not.. uh, can it be true? Then, you had the gaul to rip windows apart for being slow and crappy from your experiences on your emulators too! Like they were a good example. Granted, this wasn't everybody and not so many people do emulation nowadays, but it happened.

I work with computers every day of my life, this is what I do. And I am unbiased in my decision, it is based on fact, first hand experiences and years of use.

I'm sick to the back teeth of the arrogant RISCOS market and the unfounded snubbing of other OS's.

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Dave Lawton

Message #90226, posted at 00:36, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90225

Unregistered user

and you couldn't be bothered to add your name

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Guest

Message #90227, posted at 00:46, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90226

Unregistered user

Yes, but he's right, isn't he?

Mike

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Guest

Message #90228, posted at 08:51, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90227

Unregistered user

interesting point, but anroia also mentioned that ROL don't make exagerated claims to the OS's abilities. I find it amusing that you think they could do the opposite and fool people into buying it. :)

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Guest

Message #90229, posted at 12:18, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90228

Unregistered user

Different guest: "But we don't hear about them do we? Nooo. Also, funny how people spent hundreds and hundreds on PC emulators for their RISC PC's isn't it. And why, if Windows was so bad, did you need that? Because it did something RISCOS could not.. uh, can it be true? Then, you had the gaul to rip windows apart for being slow and crappy from your experiences on your emulators too! Like they were a good example. Granted, this wasn't everybody and not so many people do emulation nowadays, but it happened."

It was a real shame that Acorn wasted so much time and resources on x86-compatible coprocessors and emulators - if they wanted to be a one stop shop, why didn't they just keep rebranding Olivetti kit? Directing that effort towards ARM-only multiprocessing and a decent operating system, whilst appearing less willing to compromise with the trends of the day, could have had much more desirable consequences.

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Guest

Message #90230, posted at 12:33, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90229

Unregistered user

Different guest:

"Scenario - You are a person in the market for your first computer and you approach a dealer that sells either just acorns, or acorns and PCs. This is what your likely to hear:

RISCOS is easier to use.
There is a large software selection available.
RISCOS is more stable than Windows.
RISCOS doesn't get viruses."

You could probably say the same about BBC MOS, and you can download much of that software selection, as well. :-) The problem is that user expectations are going to be dashed upon attempting anything remotely contemporary. "I've seen someone do this with their computer - can I do that with mine?"

DG:

"RISCOS doesn't support hardly any new printers.
RISCOS doesn't support hardly any new scanners.
RISCOS struggles with most new CDROMRWs.
USB devices are unlikely to work on RISCOS.
RISCOS isn't very good on the internet.
RISCOS hardware costs are over inflated, usually for worse specc'd equipment than the PC variants.
You may have to pay the best part of £100 for a printer driver."

The hardware support thing is a hassle for anyone using any platform, but it is more of a problem for people using non-Windows platforms, and it is *definitely* a problem for people using minority platforms. I want to get a CD-R(W) drive for my Linux laptop, but since I'm using a kernel from a time before USB support (2-3 years ago) I need to investigate upgrades, as well as checking actual driver compatibility before buying anything.

All this extra effort isn't too much of a problem - it appears that various recommended and competitive drives are actually supported, and all I need to do is to upgrade the kernel or go for an operating system upgrade. It's more hassle than I would prefer, but at least I can get what I want - I'd hate to be told that USB devices aren't supported, that such support is coming along eventually, and that actual device support is uncertain. That wouldn't help me or anyone else in the short to medium term, and with a proprietary closed source operating system, I wouldn't even be able to try my hand at writing drivers - not that I would personally do that with Linux, myself, however.

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Annraoi

Message #90231, posted at 18:29, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90230

Unregistered user

To "Guest" someways back my name IS Annraoi (and I am pretty sure your name is NOT Guest).

RISC OS

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Annraoi

Message #90232, posted at 18:42, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90231

Unregistered user

I will address the remarks about RISC OS in a Forum entry that is more appropriate (see Forums->General->RISCOS & Windows).

See ya there

Kind regards

Annraoi

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Guest

Message #90233, posted at 18:47, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90232

Unregistered user

...even open source operating systems are streets ahead of RISCOS that is closed developed and being invested in (or so we are led to believe PAUL MIDDLETON).

Before we can move on we do need to recognise the problems. I am all for getting people to fully recognise and admit the downfalls of RISC OS before we can do anything about them and move on. Otherwise we will be living in our 'perfect' little world, blinkered from the rest of the modern computing universe forever until the eventual disappearance of RISC OS. If you can't admit the faults - you won't do anything to fix them.

And when *hehem* 'IF' RISC OS diappears I will be the first to stand up and say "I told you so".

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Guest

Message #90234, posted at 23:32, 4/3/2002, in reply to message #90233

Unregistered user

Well you WONT because you didn't give your name!

Mike

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[mentat]

Message #90235, posted at 13:10, 5/3/2002, in reply to message #90234

Unregistered user

Since this is the comments page for news items, I tend to ignore "anti" rants from guests, but I will say this once, before getting back to ignoring them.

No one here purports to think that RISC OS is perfect. Most people who use it are well aware of the limitations, and yet still use it.

We like it, we use it. We're not saying it's perfect.

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Guest

Message #90236, posted at 18:14, 5/3/2002, in reply to message #90235

Unregistered user

I suppose this obsession with knowing guest names is all about the "if you mean what you say, then you'll be brave enough put your name to it" ideology, which is meaningless in this case. Do you think that the guest posts are computer-generated from some arbitrary knowledge base or something?

Clearly, most guests who say more than the one-liner "RISC OS SUX!" do mean what they say. Just because the "everything's great, honest" crowd, who'd rather not have their illusion disturbed by the facts, use the anonymity of contributors as a means to call those contributions into question doesn't mean that the value of such contributions is (or should be) diminished in any way.

I'm tempted to think that, should the names of critical guests be made available, they would be subject to a "it's not really that bad"/"you loser" mail campaign.

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