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VideoDesk |
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Monty (23:27 5/5/2010)
arawnsley (11:52 6/5/2010)
nunfetishist (13:28 6/5/2010)
Monty (16:17 7/5/2010)
castlevarich (13:20 10/5/2010)
trevj (14:11 10/5/2010)
castlevarich (14:21 4/6/2010)
Monty (10:21 5/6/2010)
castlevarich (11:27 5/6/2010)
Monty (18:32 16/6/2010)
trevj (20:58 16/6/2010)
VincceH (17:13 18/6/2010)
Monty (21:34 24/7/2010)
Monty (02:13 5/9/2010)
Charlie (12:40 5/9/2010)
Monty (19:05 6/9/2010)
Charlie (19:30 9/9/2010)
Monty (14:29 10/9/2010)
trevj (21:51 9/10/2010)
Monty (19:04 11/10/2010)
trevj (19:59 11/10/2010)
Monty (20:22 17/10/2010)
trevj (15:30 19/11/2010)
Monty (00:22 31/1/2011)
trevj (03:55 31/1/2011)
castlevarich (17:48 9/9/2010)
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Edward Rogers |
Message #114317, posted by Monty at 23:27, 5/5/2010 |
Member
Posts: 154
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I've gotten myself a 'new' toy; a VideoDesk system for the RiscPC.
Problem:
Will only capture video at max 900Kb/s. I was hoping for 2,000Kb/s, or at least 1,400Kb/s. I'm writing it onto a 4GiB CF (6MB/s) connected to the UniPod. I've tried the UniPod in podules 0 and 1 as they get faster access, but still no improvement. I was under the impression UniPods could write at about 3.5MB/s.
!HDSpeed give me the following results:
Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506
Byte access test, large file size = 8 Mb
All times are in centi-seconds
Read 50K sequential bytes 19 941%
Write 50K sequential bytes 80.1 425%
Read 500K sequential bytes 206 899%
Write 500K sequential bytes 786 441%
50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 171 828%
50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 681 385%
Large file read 1,000 random bytes 163 5734%
Large file write 1,000 random bytes 5532 284%
Average random variation from baseline 1242%
Block Load/Save, large file size = 8 Mb
Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec
Save 50Kb file 150 73%
Load 50Kb file 1182 395%
Save large block file 2154 598%
Load large block file 2871 786%
Save/load 50 Kb file 269 111%
Save/load 512 Kb file 2077 588%
Save/load large block file 2470 676%
Average block variation from baseline 461%
Overall average variation from baseline 877%
(The saving 50KB seems unreasonably slow to me.)
Is there a reason it would be like this? Would a 7,200rpm hard disc drive be an improvement?
Thanks. |
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Andrew Rawnsley |
Message #114322, posted by arawnsley at 11:52, 6/5/2010, in reply to message #114317 |
R-Comp chap
Posts: 600
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I believe that VideoDesk systems were targeted at SCSI users at the time. Obviously IDE should be up to snuff these days, but it may depend on the interface and DMA configuration. DMA-enhanced hard drive interfaces tended to be a bit unpredictable at times (probably due to a prevelance of in-complete firmware for some devices) and I know it had to be disabled for things like Kinetic. As such, I'm not sure what you should expect these days, although I'd assume that you'd be somewhat limited by the fact that the Videodesk and the IDE interface are both on the podule bus... although that's pure speculation.
Ironically, I found that the internal IDE interface (with it's 2Mb/sec limit) often gave more repeatable/steady performance results across different block sizes than expensive 3rd party disc interfaces! |
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Rob Kendrick |
Message #114323, posted by nunfetishist at 13:28, 6/5/2010, in reply to message #114322 |
 Today's phish is trout a la creme.
Posts: 524
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I believe that VideoDesk systems were targeted at SCSI users at the time. Obviously IDE should be up to snuff these days, but it may depend on the interface and DMA configuration. DMA-enhanced hard drive interfaces tended to be a bit unpredictable at times (probably due to a prevelance of in-complete firmware for some devices) and I know it had to be disabled for things like Kinetic. It's worth noting that the Unipod does not have DMA for its IDE to the best of my knowledge. Weird performance issues with DMA hard drives is often due to DMA actually being slower than PIO for small writes, such as file system metadata update, and not all driver software fell back to PIO for short writes or reads. |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #114339, posted by Monty at 16:17, 7/5/2010, in reply to message #114323 |
Member
Posts: 154
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Well, I've got a normal hhd on its way, so we'll see if that makes the difference. |
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Jon Robinson |
Message #114393, posted by castlevarich at 13:20, 10/5/2010, in reply to message #114339 |
Member
Posts: 55
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The reason digital video has never
really got started on RISC OS is the
Replay format.
Acorn had to create a new format,
rather than use an industry-standard
one.
It's not used on any other platform,
and apart from the few CDs of low-
quality clips that you used to be able
to buy, if you wanted any footage
to play with, you had to buy a £500
capture board, and then the quality
you could capture was seriously limited
by the speed of your RiscPC's hardware.
Thanks to Chris Martin and Andre
Timmermans, we can now play MPEGs
fairly well and convert a lot of other
formats like Quicktime and AVI to
MPEG, but we still DON'T have any
way of converting between MPEG
and Replay.
If that piece of the jigsaw was to be
put in place, we'd be able to make use
of the countless MPEGs that can be
downloaded from the internet, and
also use the video capture facilities
of much faster digital cameras and
camcorders to capture raw footage
in the first place, instead of having to
use antique RiscPC hardware.
CJE still sell a version of Henrik Pederson's
CineWorks, for £50, that supports MPEG
import and export, and could be used
to do the conversion, but when I tried
running a copy on my 4.39 RiscPC, I
just got an Abort on Data Transfer error,
so I've never been able to use it.
If there are any programmers reading
this, I'd quite happily pay £40 for a
utility that can convert between
MPEG and Replay, and I'm sure there
will be a few other people who would
do the same.
If that piece of the jigsaw was in place,
we'd then be able to use the older Replay-
only version of CineWorks to assemble
sequences of clips into a proper film.
Wallace and Gromit here we come !!!!
Video processor has always been a non
starter on RISC OS because of the non-
standard format, and the lack of cheap
and fast video capture, but if we could
make a few more tools available, and get
them working on the Beagle Board, then
it might not be such a painful experience.
Jon Robinson (Leeds) |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #114396, posted by trevj at 14:11, 10/5/2010, in reply to message #114393 |
Member
Posts: 660
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...but if we could make a few more tools available, and get them working on the Beagle Board, then it might not be such a painful experience... Here's a Replay related thread on the ROOL forum for reference. AIUI some licensing issues remain. |
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Jon Robinson |
Message #114582, posted by castlevarich at 14:21, 4/6/2010, in reply to message #114317 |
Member
Posts: 55
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Dear Edward
I know that you are interested in digital video
on RISC OS, as I am also.
I bought a copy of the enhanced CineWorks from CJE at the Wakefield Show about 2 years ago.
This supposedly supports MPEG 1/2 import and export.
However, it uses an installer which just locks my machine up when I try to run it on a 4.39 RiscPC.
In theory the import/export facilities are just plugins that can be copied inside CineWorks to expand its file format capabilities, but I haven't been able to test this because of the installer problem.
I spent £50 on it and haven't even been able get it to install.
However, it will almost certainly install on a 3.5-3.7 RiscPC or an A7000, and then we could have a go at copying the MPEG plugins into the free version of CW to see if they will work.
As I don't have a 3.7 RiscPC or A7000, I haven't been able to test this, but if you have access to either kind of disc, I'd be happy to post the disks down to you, so that you could have a go.
Best wishes Jon |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #114587, posted by Monty at 10:21, 5/6/2010, in reply to message #114582 |
Member
Posts: 154
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Jon,
Thats an interesting idea. I'll see if I can get hold of a pair of roms (I'm also on 4.39) then get back in contact.
Edward. |
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Jon Robinson |
Message #114588, posted by castlevarich at 11:27, 5/6/2010, in reply to message #114587 |
Member
Posts: 55
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Dear Edward
There's a new user group in the Bristol area.
You'd do better seeing if any of the members
have a 3.7 RiscPC or A7000, rather than risk
messing with the ROMs.
Your RiscPC motherboard is an old lady now,
and the less you mess with it the better.
You might end up with an unusable machine
if you are unlucky.
Best wishes
Jon Robinson (Leeds) |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #114644, posted by Monty at 18:32, 16/6/2010, in reply to message #114588 |
Member
Posts: 154
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Jon,
I'll ask them as soon as I've got a free evening and let you know.
Regards,
Edward. |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #114645, posted by trevj at 20:58, 16/6/2010, in reply to message #114644 |
Member
Posts: 660
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There's a new user group in the Bristol area... I'll ask them as soon as I've got a free evening and let you know.
I have my old RO3.5 ROMs and HDD somewhere around (hopefully not up in the loft!)
As for the (fledgling) Bristol group, the mailing list is running - so you could post there as a starting point. And depending on where you're based you may also/alternatively wish to try WAUG, whose next meeting is this Saturday.
[Edited by trevj at 21:58, 16/6/2010] |
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VinceH |
Message #114650, posted by VincceH at 17:13, 18/6/2010, in reply to message #114645 |
 Lowering the tone since the dawn of time
Posts: 1600
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And depending on where you're based you may also/alternatively wish to try WAUG, whose next meeting is this Saturday. When I read that the other day, it served as a reminder for me because I intended popping down to that meeting.
Today, however, my exhaust tailpipe and I have decided to part company, so my plans for tomorrow now involve getting that sorted.  |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #114872, posted by Monty at 21:34, 24/7/2010, in reply to message #114645 |
Member
Posts: 154
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I haven't had the time to pursue the RO3.5 roms idea further yet.
Meanwhile, it would useful to know if there is a maximum format size for SCSI devices (connected via a Castle 32 bit podule), or even a maximum file size. Turns out VideoDesk is a bit of a disc hog, taking up 3GB for 32 minutes of medium quality film.
Cheers |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #115254, posted by Monty at 02:13, 5/9/2010, in reply to message #114872 |
Member
Posts: 154
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Alright, I've been meaning to try this for a while. I shall be sending an e-mail to the Bristol user group within a day or two if Jon's still interested in getting CineWorks running. Let me know. Cheers |
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Charlie |
Message #115255, posted by Charlie at 12:40, 5/9/2010, in reply to message #115254 |
Member
Posts: 95
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Hi Edward,
You may now be on to new and better things in which case I'd take that 'spare' Video Desk hardware off you hands if you like  ...
...ok, on a more sensible note I suspect you'll need a (good) SCSI podule + HDD to go with your equipment to get the bandwidth you'd like.
My understanding is the design of the RiscPC will always make sure you'll never get good, sustained, throughput under IDE.
Some convenient 1/2 truths:
-Motherboard IDE: Steady, but slow.
-Unipod IDE: Faster, but can 'bog down'.
-DMA IDE card: Fast, but speed can vary wildly.
With SCSI throughput is maintained as this is what it's good at...
...as long as the SCSI podule itself copes well with podule-bus / OS bottlenecks. (a good one)
All the best. |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #115277, posted by Monty at 19:05, 6/9/2010, in reply to message #115255 |
Member
Posts: 154
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I've gone down the SCSI route and I do get much better speeds, yes. Have you had any experience with SCSI drives over 36GiB? CJE told me that that was the highest they had in stock and that higher sizes tended to not work. Unfortunately their 36 was 150 pounds so I shall have to look elsewhere.
[Edited by Monty at 21:23, 9/9/2010] |
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Jon Robinson |
Message #115306, posted by castlevarich at 17:48, 9/9/2010, in reply to message #115254 |
Member
Posts: 55
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Alright, I've been meaning to try this for a while. I shall be sending an e-mail to the Bristol user group within a day or two if Jon's still interested in getting CineWorks running. Let me know. Cheers Dear Edward
I would not start prizing ROM chips out and trying to put older ones in. You can very easily kill a machine doing that, unless you're really careful. Also I'm not sure a RISC OS 4-formatted hard drive will boot up with 3.7.
See if there's anybody who lives near you who has an A7000 or RISC OS 3.5 - 3.7 Risc PC.
Jon Robinson (Leeds) |
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Charlie |
Message #115308, posted by Charlie at 19:30, 9/9/2010, in reply to message #115277 |
Member
Posts: 95
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Hello,
Glad it's a bit faster - yes SCSI drives do go for crewel prices...
...you can get much cheaper (and larger) on fleaBay, but of course there's no guarntee they will work with a RiscPC - I think Mr CJE is correct on that one.
In Amiga-land the same kind of issue crops up:
-IDE's ok but resource hungry + slow + can't maintain steady throughput.
-Many (inc me) Amiga owners therefore switch to SCSI, but there's the same issue: MONEY!
-To get round this you can buy one of THESE to convert (cheap) IDE drives to SCSI...
...most hobbyists have got a few large IDE drives kicking about - one can then test at leisure without risking too much cash.
Ok, they work on Amiga (and PC) SCSI, what about a RiscPC?
Good question, I've not tried. Having just come down from the 'study' where I shoved my Amiga's IDE-SCSI adaptor + a random IDE drive into one of my RiscPC's (with Morley 16Bit, cached SCSI card - a 'good' one, but quite old) the combination is recognised. 
No, I didn't go as far as trying to format the drive - life's too short.
Food for thought? |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #115331, posted by Monty at 14:29, 10/9/2010, in reply to message #115308 |
Member
Posts: 154
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I shall get in contact with Bristol group next week then.
@Charlie: I've decided on taking my chances with cheap SCSI drives on ebay. We'll see how that goes. |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #115611, posted by trevj at 21:51, 9/10/2010, in reply to message #115331 |
Member
Posts: 660
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If you're still looking for RO3.5, there's currently a set of ROMs on ebay. (Untested, but the photo doesn't reveal any missing pins.) |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #115620, posted by Monty at 19:04, 11/10/2010, in reply to message #115611 |
Member
Posts: 154
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Well my reasons for not getting anything much done on this point is that the machine is now functioning as a editing machine and I'm loath to mess with it. Its even stopped freezing! Who'da thought it?
So until I finish my new animation project (Stop Motion, see bolex brothers for sponsor) I'm going to leave it. Thanks for the tip off though. |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #115621, posted by trevj at 19:59, 11/10/2010, in reply to message #115620 |
Member
Posts: 660
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Sounds interesting... If you fancy a busman's holiday, Coraline is worth watching (if you've not already seen it). |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #115654, posted by Monty at 20:22, 17/10/2010, in reply to message #115621 |
Member
Posts: 154
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Sounds interesting... If you fancy a busman's holiday, Coraline is worth watching (if you've not already seen it). Saw that on the big screen. Its very impressive. Almost too impressive (the animation that is---nice story) because it was clearly beyond the skill of a single animator to animate any one of those characters through the whole film. I preferred Fantastic Mr Fox; that is I preferred the animation style. Hated it as a film. Don't! Touch! My! Childhood! And don't make it full of quick American wit! |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #115895, posted by trevj at 15:30, 19/11/2010, in reply to message #115654 |
Member
Posts: 660
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...big screen... I don't suppose you were at the Arnolfini for the Storm screening/event last night, were you? It was pretty packed. The film's done by a coder-turned-animator. |
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Edward Rogers |
Message #116390, posted by Monty at 00:22, 31/1/2011, in reply to message #115895 |
Member
Posts: 154
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I hope Mr Johnson can forgive me for being so tardy in response; but no, I was not able to attend that event. Though I do work either above it or over the river from it, depending on the week.
Regarding the VideoDesk machine, I should like to ask for further advice.
Having dug it out again (been stashed away for a month or so) I have stumbled across an issue. For some reason I now forget it was necessary to start it up with the delete key held down. I was booting from a SCSI disc attached to a Castle interface. Now, however, it refuses to load. If I just skip the 'boot disc not found' screen and go to the desktop there is an icon on the desktop for the card, but not the drive. Any clues on what to do next would be appreciated. It has been some time since I've properly fiddled with RISC OS and I seemed to have lost my capacity to fix problems during that time.
EDIT:
To clarify, when I get to the boot menu, a red sign pops up saying "SCSI disc no ready"
[Edited by Monty at 00:43, 31/1/2011] |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #116391, posted by trevj at 03:55, 31/1/2011, in reply to message #116390 |
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Posts: 660
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I hope Mr Johnson can forgive me for being so tardy in response; but no, I was not able to attend that event. No problem, Mr Rogers. |
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