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The Icon Bar: General: Who's getting a pi to configure as a Risc OS computer?
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Who's getting a pi to configure as a Risc OS computer? |
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bonzobanana (20:37 1/2/2012)
arawnsley (12:00 2/2/2012)
andypoole (12:35 2/2/2012)
arawnsley (13:02 2/2/2012)
SparkY (16:55 2/2/2012)
andypoole (16:58 2/2/2012)
flibble (17:09 2/2/2012)
andypoole (17:29 2/2/2012)
thecellartroll (08:28 3/2/2012)
vanpeebles (08:38 3/2/2012)
flibble (11:04 3/2/2012)
apacketofsweets (11:15 3/2/2012)
andypoole (17:42 3/2/2012)
bonzobanana (10:50 4/2/2012)
trevj (12:17 3/2/2012)
bonzobanana (20:12 2/2/2012)
Phlamethrower (01:37 3/2/2012)
adrianl (13:19 7/2/2012)
swirlythingy (15:27 7/2/2012)
filecore (09:55 29/3/2012)
SparkY (17:01 2/2/2012)
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Martin Wilson |
Message #119530, posted by bonzobanana at 20:37, 1/2/2012 |
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Posts: 16
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I can't resist. Looking forward to getting back to Risc OS at a reasonable speed, hoping a real community develops like the old days and we see some reasonable interest in Risc OS again.
Although not super powerful by PC standards the pi seems fast enough for my needs and should be about 10x faster than my old strong arm risc pc in real terms. |
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Andrew Rawnsley |
Message #119531, posted by arawnsley at 12:00, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119530 |
R-Comp chap
Posts: 600
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Just wondering why you'd be so up for the Pi, when the Beagleboard/ARMini, or PandaBoard are much faster, more expandable, and have much more mature/ complete versions of RISC OS available.
Given the cost of accessories required for the pi is the same as (or more, when I think about it) for the BB etc, the cost savings rather pale (you might save 60ukp with a Pi).
I'm biased, of course, but really, apart from the price and the hype, the existing boards are (by and large) better RISC OS platforms. |
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Andrew Poole |
Message #119532, posted by andypoole at 12:35, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119531 |
Posts: 5558
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Just wondering why you'd be so up for the Pi, when the Beagleboard/ARMini, or PandaBoard are much faster, more expandable, and have much more mature/ complete versions of RISC OS available. $25 vs $149.
The additional accessories for each will be roughly the same (ie, keyboard, mouse, monitor, SD card, etc), so the cost difference isn't going to move much.
I doubt it'll be long before the versions of ROOL's RO are pretty much the same for both platforms.
As for myself, I'll be getting a Raspberry Pi, but I don't intend to use it for a RISC OS machine other than the odd bit of fiddling and novelty. It'll spend most of its life running Linux. |
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Andrew Rawnsley |
Message #119533, posted by arawnsley at 13:02, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119532 |
R-Comp chap
Posts: 600
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Please be realistic - the model A pi really isn't any use outside of the price (no LAN) unless used as a controller. It'd really be 35$ plus a powered USB hub (only 2 USB ports on a pi). I still understand where you're coming from, but a total saving of about 90$ = 60ukp as per my posting.
And then you get a slower computer, using an older architecture.
Note, I'm not knocking the pi - we're considering it for an entry level "jr" machine ourselves. It's just that when we priced it all up, the cost saving with all the parts included doesn't seem such a big deal, so we're looking at ways to hobby-ise it, rather than making it a full-blown computer. |
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Gavin Smith |
Message #119534, posted by SparkY at 16:55, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119533 |
 Danger! Danger! High Voltage!
Posts: 697
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Please be realistic - the model A pi really isn't any use outside of the price (no LAN) unless used as a controller. It'd really be 35$ plus a powered USB hub (only 2 USB ports on a pi). I still understand where you're coming from, but a total saving of about 90$ = 60ukp as per my posting.
And then you get a slower computer, using an older architecture.
Note, I'm not knocking the pi - we're considering it for an entry level "jr" machine ourselves. It's just that when we priced it all up, the cost saving with all the parts included doesn't seem such a big deal, so we're looking at ways to hobby-ise it, rather than making it a full-blown computer. I think your posts are really disappointing Andrew. This is a new computer that has had huge coverage in the mainstream press and will sell in the many thousands. It's a great little device with loads of potential. Whether intentionally or not, your posts just sound yet again like you're trying to sell stuff. It's really off-putting.
As for pricing, for most people $35 is all they'll need to spend to get started. Most people have a USB keyboard/mouse lying around. They'll probably even have an SD card from a camera or something. Compatible power supplies are likely kicking around the house from an appropriate mobile phone or the like (or a few quid if not). An HDMI cable gets you into most modern TVs. Later, if they want to expand capacity, they'll need a USB hub or a bigger SD card but for most people, $35 gets you up and running on a little Linux ARM device that has the potential to run RISC OS. That's neat.
[Edited by SparkY at 16:59, 2/2/2012] |
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Andrew Poole |
Message #119535, posted by andypoole at 16:58, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119533 |
Posts: 5558
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Note, I'm not knocking the pi - we're considering it for an entry level "jr" machine ourselves. It's just that when we priced it all up, the cost saving with all the parts included doesn't seem such a big deal, so we're looking at ways to hobby-ise it, rather than making it a full-blown computer. It's not intended to be a full-blown computer. It's intended to be an development board (with an emphasis on education).
Honestly, I myself find it amusing that so many people seem to be trying to make out that it's being purposefully developed for running RISC OS, which it isn't. In fact, the top of the Raspberry Pi's own website says "An ARM GNU/Linux box for $25." - not "An ARM RISC OS box for $25". |
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Gavin Smith |
Message #119536, posted by SparkY at 17:01, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119530 |
Danger! Danger! High Voltage!
Posts: 697
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I can't resist. Looking forward to getting back to Risc OS at a reasonable speed, hoping a real community develops like the old days and we see some reasonable interest in Risc OS again.
Although not super powerful by PC standards the pi seems fast enough for my needs and should be about 10x faster than my old strong arm risc pc in real terms. Absolutely! I've bumped into lots of people on the net who are interested in the possibility of playing with RISC OS again. And where RISC OS doesn't suit, you can swap an SD card and play with Linux. It's fantastic for education and for people wanting to play with this stuff. |
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Peter Howkins |
Message #119537, posted by flibble at 17:09, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119535 |
Posts: 892
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It's intended to be an development board (with an emphasis on education). Before this one gets confused too, it's emphasis is on Computer Science education, not as a general tool to support schools/home users in all subjects. |
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Andrew Poole |
Message #119538, posted by andypoole at 17:29, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119537 |
Posts: 5558
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It's intended to be an development board (with an emphasis on education). Before this one gets confused too, it's emphasis is on Computer Science education, not as a general tool to support schools/home users in all subjects.
Yeah, I could have been a tad clearer there.. I typed that in a hurry on my way out of the office  |
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Martin Wilson |
Message #119539, posted by bonzobanana at 20:12, 2/2/2012, in reply to message #119531 |
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Well from my perspective its going to be about £23 for a model B plus VAT and postage. Postage at near cost I believe so less than £30. I have everything I need already to make it into a viable computer.
I'm not that familar with beagleboard,armini or Pandaboard but do know the Raspberry Pi has a pretty decent GPU running at 250mhz, 256 megabytes of memory and optimised decoding of mpeg files etc so can playback 1080p video. Sadly not bluray discs but bluray rips I guess. Combining this with Risc OS seems to me a pretty good computer in theory.
Its based on the Broadcom BCM2835 and you can see what the pi is capable of by looking for information on the 'Roku 2' which has the same chipset. Its more a double core GPU with a small Arm core bolted on than an Arm with added GPU.
It has hdmi/dvi output and modular expansion for various extras.
I'm going to mount it in a small box to go behind the tv and use a wireless combined keyboard and joystick/trackerball depending on drivers.
Thats all there is to it really I think. Hoping there will be a dual boot arrangement at some point so I can choose linux/xbmc or Risc OS at bootup.
How does the specification of Raspberry Pi compare to the other boards, what can they do that the raspberry pi can't? For example the Raspberry Pi was running Quake 3 at 1080p with 4x anti-aliasing at something like 30fps I believe. Are they capable of that?
My old SA 233mhz Risc PC ran the original Quake at about 7fps at 320x200 or something like that because of a lack of fpu and 3D graphics acceleration.
I may find that owning a Raspberry Pi will actually motivate me to go beyond it and get a more dedicated Risc OS board later on. I come to Icon Bar because I have such fond memories of Risc OS but haven't actually used a risco OS computer for a few years now even though I have a Arm3 A3010 and SA Risc PC.
[Edited by bonzobanana at 22:13, 2/2/2012] |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #119540, posted by Phlamethrower at 01:37, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119539 |
 Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff
Posts: 15100
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How does the specification of Raspberry Pi compare to the other boards, what can they do that the raspberry pi can't? For example the Raspberry Pi was running Quake 3 at 1080p with 4x anti-aliasing at something like 30fps I believe. Are they capable of that? I think the GPU performance of the Pi is roughly on par with the Pandaboard. The Beagleboard/ARMini is the worst of the bunch, since the GPU it uses is now about 3 or 4 years old. I know Quake 3 will run at 30fps at 720p on a Beagleboard, but I'm not sure if you can get a worthwhile framerate at higher resolutions. Likewise a Beagleboard can also decode HD video, but I think it's only powerful enough for 720p.
Your statement that the BCM2835 is a GPU with a small ARM core bolted on sounds about right; if you compare it to the OMAP3 (Beagleboard) or OMAP4 (Pandaboard) you'll see that the OMAP chips have much more powerful ARM processors than the Pi. The ARM core in the BCM2835 is one generation behind the OMAP3, and two generations behind the OMAP4. The ARM core in the Beagleboard-xM runs at 1GHz; although this is only 300MHz faster than the Pi I'd expect the performance to be about twice as much as the Pi due to the improvements that have been made to the architecture as a whole (it's a dual-issue architecture instead of single-issue). And the Pandaboard, being a dual-core chip, would be twice as fast again (if you ignore the fact that for the forseeable future RISC OS will only be able to use the one core). The Beagleboard & Pandaboard also have better floating point hardware (they support the SIMD NEON instruction set), and have more memory (512MB & 1GB.)
Whether the Pi is right for you really comes down to how you're planning on using it. Remember that the GPU drivers for all the boards are closed source, so don't expect RISC OS to be able to do hardware 3D or video decoding any time soon. NEON support in the Beagleboard/Pandaboard means they'll be much better at software 3D & software video decoding than the Pi. But since NEON code won't run on the Pi you might find that you're out of luck if people only focus on producing NEON versions of their software.
For general desktop tasks the Pi will be OK, but if you were planning on watching videos or playing new game ports under RISC OS I think you'd be much better off going with something more powerful. |
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Steven Gregory |
Message #119541, posted by thecellartroll at 08:28, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119533 |
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Posts: 135
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Please be realistic - the model A pi really isn't any use outside of the price (no LAN) unless used as a controller. It'd really be 35$ plus a powered USB hub (only 2 USB ports on a pi). I still understand where you're coming from, but a total saving of about 90$ = 60ukp as per my posting.
Lets face it the huge expense of all the extra stuff you'd have to buy can mostly be skipped by rooting about in the average computer enthusiasts spare bits box. When I got my Beagleboard I didn't have to buy anything else.
So basically you'll be able to get the Raspberry Pi for around £30 and the Beagleboard XM in the UK sells for £120. Some simple arithmetic tells me that the saving will be around £90.
Even if you do have to cost-in a powered hub you're still looking at savings of £80, presuming that you're sensible about where you buy the hub.
Every time anyone makes a thread about running Risc OS on a development board that hasn't been cased up and retailed on the wrong side of £500 you try to suggest that it will be a really expensive thing to do. Suggests that you're not happy with the way sales of the ARMini are going. Of course if you have a healthily populated box of spare computer junk the Raspberry Pi, assuming that its Risc OS port matures to the same level as the Beagleboard could represent a saving of nearly £570. |
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vanpeebles |
Message #119542, posted by vanpeebles at 08:38, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119541 |
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Posts: 198
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I agree with this post. For me it is a simple numbers game. If the pi is made in large volumes it would be foolish to not have RISC OS properly running on it.
This is the first chance in a long time of nothing to get RISC OS out on standardised hardware which will be available to a large number of users.
[Edited by vanpeebles at 08:39, 3/2/2012] |
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Peter Howkins |
Message #119543, posted by flibble at 11:04, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119542 |
Posts: 892
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I agree with this post. For me it is a simple numbers game. For me it's simpler still;
At 30 quid it is something I don't have to worry if I decided not to use it. It's the price of good day out or 2/3 a tank of petrol.
At 120 quid it's something that had better be useful, this has entered the stage where I really don't want to just leave it on a shelf.
At 600 quid it has to be of significant continued use, and it had better offer a hell of a lot more for a 480 quid increase.
As such, I'll be getting an R-Pi with Linux on, although I will happily have a play with RISC OS once it's available.
As for the potential new software on RISC OS that'll only make use of the more expensive hardware ... this is RISC OS land, the chances of new software are mostly bugger all.
[Edited by flibble at 11:05, 3/2/2012] |
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Sion |
Message #119544, posted by apacketofsweets at 11:15, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119543 |
 RISC OS, too cool for Javascript.
Posts: 110
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The Raspberry Pi will never replace the likes of the ARMini, or even the BeagleBoard. They are both very different beasts and both have very different audiences.
Just take a look at the BeagleBoard and the ARMini, if the former was a full-fledged RISC OS set-up then nobody would have bought the much more expensive ARMini, yet you only need to take a peek at the ARMini mailing list to realize that there's a good few users of the ARMini out there. |
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Trevor Johnson |
Message #119545, posted by trevj at 12:17, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119532 |
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As for myself, I'll be getting a Raspberry Pi, but I don't intend to use it for a RISC OS machine other than the odd bit of fiddling and novelty. It'll spend most of its life running Linux. Raspbmc sounds like one good reason to get one. As you say, the option to run RO on it will probably be a novelty to most.
It's intended to be an development board (with an emphasis on education). Before this one gets confused too, it's emphasis is on Computer Science education, not as a general tool to support schools/home users in all subjects.
Experimenting with programming languages (including BBC BASIC) and graphics seems to be the general idea. Any means of running old educational software will be a bonus but there is more polished software available under alternative OSes and even Flash games on the CBeebies website.
Who programmed and/or developed such BBC/RO educational software in the past? Mainly ex-teachers? What will such people gravitate towards (for the home market) in the immediate future? Probably iOS and Android, where there are large installed user bases and well established simple ways to distribute/charge for applications. It seems highly unlikely that developers/publishers of educational software would target either Linux or RISC OS unless they offer something significant which mobile platforms don't, e.g. the schools market... except, of course, that's currently welded to x86 and Windows. Then again, if Windows on ARM is successful, why would developers bother with platforms other than that? Perhaps becoming a school governor and warning against not being locked in to Windows for any future school ARM purchases would be worthwhile.
For general desktop tasks the Pi will be OK, but if you were planning on watching videos or playing new game ports under RISC OS I think you'd be much better off going with something more powerful. If there's ever a demoscene on RO again, that may be another reason why someone would want a more powerful machine than the RPi. The RPI's GPU isn't (and may never be) accessible under RO. But aren't such demos unlikely to surpass the performance of the RPi's GPU? Unless it's somehow preferable to code for VFP/NEON under RO than for the RPI's GPU under Linux, it doesn't sound particularly attractive.
Does anyone think that an open source release of Zarch would help (assuming David Braben is willing and has the rights to do so)?
Having said all that, I can see the attraction in purchasing a more polished non-hobbyist product such as the ARMini, and it's a great way to support current software development. Some "returners" may experiment with RO on the RPi and then possibly "upgrade" in the future to a more mature product. |
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Andrew Poole |
Message #119546, posted by andypoole at 17:42, 3/2/2012, in reply to message #119543 |
Posts: 5558
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I agree with this post. For me it is a simple numbers game. For me it's simpler still;
At 30 quid it is something I don't have to worry if I decided not to use it. It's the price of good day out or 2/3 a tank of petrol.
That's how I see it, too. For 30 quid, it's worth a punt. At that price, it doesn't matter if it gets broken. It's a reasonable price for something to play around and have some fun with.
I've likely got most of the "accessories" needed to get it running (I've got keyboards, mice, USB hubs, HDMI cables, SD cards, etc), so I can't imagine I'll need to pay any more than the cost of the board itself.
At 120 quid it's something that had better be useful, this has entered the stage where I really don't want to just leave it on a shelf.
At 600 quid it has to be of significant continued use, and it had better offer a hell of a lot more for a 480 quid increase. I did look at getting a beagleboard to play with, but decided there's better things I can get for the 120 quid. I didn't have a particular use for it, and so couldn't justify the money.
Given that, 600 quid for an ARMini was just out of the question. (And even if I did have a use for it, I'd probably have bought the board and get the rest cheaply online, since I can't really justify 600 quid for what's essentially a dev board in a box).
As such, I'll be getting an R-Pi with Linux on, although I will happily have a play with RISC OS once it's available. This. I've got a couple of ideas of small projects I could use a Raspberry Pi with, but mostly for me it'll be more about playing around. I'll probably run RISC OS on it at some point, but the majority of the tinkering I'll do with it will be in Linux.
As for the potential new software on RISC OS that'll only make use of the more expensive hardware ... this is RISC OS land, the chances of new software are mostly bugger all. Even if new software did appear, I don't think I'd be interested enough in it to bother getting the more expensive hardware. I moved on from using RISC OS daily a long time ago. For me, RISC OS isn't something I'm willing to spend lots of money on any more. 30 quid for a Raspberry Pi? Sure. 120 quid (or more) for a beagleboard(-based box)? Nah. |
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Martin Wilson |
Message #119547, posted by bonzobanana at 10:50, 4/2/2012, in reply to message #119546 |
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There is some information here on performance;
http://elinux.org/RPi_Performance
I'm guessing floating point isn't going to be great.
I personally don't see why the raspberry pi can't replace these other boards for Risc OS. I believe pi will evolve over time assuming the foundation keeps going and faster versions will be released.
From my own perspective I already have a few old PCs good enough for linux which although won't be as fast booting, stable or so easy to reset/restart are in fact much more powerful.
I only really want a pi for Risc OS and XBMC. I suppose I might also want it for an android destop environment. |
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Adrian Lees |
Message #119549, posted by adrianl at 13:19, 7/2/2012, in reply to message #119540 |
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http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s548734 |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #119550, posted by swirlythingy at 15:27, 7/2/2012, in reply to message #119549 |
Posts: 460
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http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s548734 ...But does it run RISC OS? |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #119894, posted by filecore at 09:55, 29/3/2012, in reply to message #119550 |
Posts: 3868
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http://www.reghardware.com/2012/03/29/raspberry_pi_supplier_apologises_for_ship_date_delay_glitch/ |
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