The Icon Bar: The Playpen: The lengthy essay thread
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The lengthy essay thread |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #22789, posted by monkeyson2 at 18:31, 5/11/2002 |
 Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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Inspired by Phlamethrower's lengthy post, this thread is devoted to huge long rambling posts about a particular topic. Kind of like Just A Minute, only longer.
I'd start you off with something, but I don't have time. Off you go! |
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Andrew |
Message #22791, posted by andrew at 18:48, 5/11/2002, in reply to message #22789 |
 Handbag Boi
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GIBLETS'R'US |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22794, posted by Phlamethrower at 19:36, 5/11/2002, in reply to message #22791 |
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Yay! A thread for me to talk on and on about stuff which no-one is interested in 
But I'm busy now  |
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James Shaw |
Message #22796, posted by Hertzsprung at 20:06, 5/11/2002, in reply to message #22794 |
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These posts are not long enough
[Edited by andypoole at 15:16, 6/11/2002. Now we don't want all of that empty wasted space now do we? ]
[Edited by Hertzsprung at 16:26, 7/11/2002] |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22797, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:19, 5/11/2002, in reply to message #22796 |
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I'll do one later, once I've finished designing my Befunge chip |
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Andrew |
Message #22798, posted by andrew at 22:59, 5/11/2002, in reply to message #22797 |
Handbag Boi
Posts: 3439
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I'll do one later, once I've finished designing my Befunge chip  slapper |
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Andrew Sidwell |
Message #22857, posted by takkaria at 20:07, 6/11/2002, in reply to message #22789 |
Member
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Start me off on something. I'll be able to talk for ages about it; I'm really quite good at that. However, without a point, things tend to ramble on, without aim - sort of meandering. It also means that you can say anything, because it can't be off-topic, 'cos there is no topic. I'm also trying to not duplicate words, but I doubt I'll manage it, to be honest. From this point, I could branch and talk about whatever I like; from ARM assembler to MP3 players and how crap Windoze(tm) is. I might even start advertising various news portals (mentioning no names *cough*drobe.co.uk*cough*) or even moan about how MicroDigital haven't updated their website. I could talk a little about what my Angband variant hopes to achieve, or even how the iconbar.com's forums *really* need an edit profile facility (I want to change my homepage, you see).
Bah, that was tiring. |
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John Hoare |
Message #22858, posted by moss at 20:17, 6/11/2002, in reply to message #22857 |
Posts: 9348
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I just can't be arsed |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22865, posted by Phlamethrower at 00:14, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22857 |
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Posts: 15100
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Start me off on something. I'll be able to talk for ages about it; I'm really quite good at that. However, without a point, things tend to ramble on, without aim - sort of meandering. It also means that you can say anything, because it can't be off-topic, 'cos there is no topic. I'm also trying to not duplicate words, but I doubt I'll manage it, to be honest. From this point, I could branch and talk about whatever I like; from ARM assembler to MP3 players and how crap Windoze(tm) is. I might even start advertising various news portals (mentioning no names *cough*drobe.co.uk*cough*) or even moan about how MicroDigital haven't updated their website. I could talk a little about what my Angband variant hopes to achieve, or even how the iconbar.com's forums *really* need an edit profile facility (I want to change my homepage, you see). I'm like that too 
My urges to rant about things tend to rise and fall over time, for example earlier on today I was going to go on about how the media/parents blame everything on violent computer games, such as the GTA series. But now I can't be bothered.
Or at least that's what I thought, but now that I've started I can't stop! Aaargh! get out before it's too late!
... blame everything on violent computer games, such as the GTA series. But what they don't realise is that GTA isn't violent/evil, and isn't meant to be because they know that if they made a truly evil game then it would be banned outright and noone would play it (Apart from truly evil people), and thus would defeat the object of making it, apart from a big 'This is what a violent game is!' to the media.
*Has several attempts to explain what a truly evil game would be like*
Actually, a truly evil game would be the real world. In the real world you can perform any act you feel like, and if you are good enough you can get away with it. Thus a truly evil game would be a full simulation of reality, allowing you to perform any actions you wish. People left to play the game would probably end up performing evil deeds rather than good ones - in the game world, there will be no real consequences for peoples actions. Thus you are able to take greater risks than you would if you were in the real world, and act out any desires you have. Fancy that woman stood over there? Follow her around then rape her. Then kill her and hide the body somewhere. Got annoyed about something? Steal a car and run some people over. Then break into a military base and steal a tank, before going round blowing up a few buildings, which are of course full of people. In real life you'd probably not do any of the above, because you know that in the end it will come back and bite you on the arse. Compare that to being good then: In the real world you are forced to be good (Because being bad will lead to punishment), but in a (massively multi player) game world where people can get away with bad things the good people will soon be wiped out. Of course there are flaws in this; in the game world you will eventually get caught as well, but you'll always be able to start again - just start a new character then resume your killing spree.
So if the above is true, then a truly evil game would be the real world. Thus it can't be the game which is at fault, because it is based around the real world - and a simulation of the real world can't be more evil then the real world itself; if it was then the simulation would be wrong. Thus it is either the world itself that is evil (And people are too blind to see it or act on it), or more likely the people that inhabit it are evil - after all, in the real world you only have one life, so the ratio of good to bad people is fairly high since people are under constant fear of being caught and punished/killed. In a game world where you can act without fear of your life, the tables would turn though, because people would be free to do what they want. And invariably, people would want to be evil. If, for example, the whole world was destroyed because someone got too evil, then the game would no longer be fun/playable - so someone would just reset it to the original state, allowing people to run amuck again. Anyway the point I was making here was that the people are evil, not the game - everyone has evil desires, just that in the real world we aren't going to act on them because they have consequences.
Of course I did say above that a truly evil game wouldn't be played because it would disgust people too much. Looking at the above argument it may be that this was false, but that depends on how realistic it is - if it was fully realistic, then the moderately evil people would soon realise that being evil isn't as fun as they thought it was. This would leave the fully evil people left, who would be loving the game.
The other situation would be a realistic game where evil deeds are rewarded, and you work your way up through the ranks of evil. This would provide some form of fully evil hub (Or the whole game world), which would as above be too evil for everyone except the most evil people. In this situation it would be the games fault for being designed to be evil, but as stated this game would be too evil to be a success, apart from the 'This is evil' factor.
... Which leads back to the same conclusion that games aren't evil but people are. And because people are evil, there is the factor that they will want evil games to play - just not to the extent of being totally evil.
... Which leads back to the point that because the games aren't what ats fault, the media are just side stepping the real problem - that it's people that are evil. Why? There are several possible reasons...
1. They are afraid to admit that people are inherently evil, and so blames the symptoms and not the cause.
2. The media survives on people being evil, and so doesn't want to say that people are evil because if the amount of evil is reduced then the media will loose money. Thus the media is actually evil itself, because it promotes evil.
3. The media is stupid.
In an evil world, 2. is probably the most likely, although there's a good chance that 3. is true. 1. may also be true, but because of 2. or 3. they never say that people are evil. In any case the media is crap.
*sits back and awaits the ensuing arguments* |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22867, posted by Phlamethrower at 03:06, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22865 |
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Just a short follow up I thought of while reading the shit on http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpID=811&NewsID=388260&CategoryID=9045&show=localnews&om ...
If people are so bothered about games being a bad influence, then why doesn't someone come up with a nice friendly game? One where no-one can get hurt or offended. This is of course impossible. A game is something that you can win, and in order to win there must be someone else that has lost. The person who has lost is bound to feel upset, so the game can't be very nice. Sure, one player games are a possibility (e.g. some exciting, educational maths puzzles), but what about poor stupid Bobby who can't count? How will he feel?
Incidentally that article highlights my point about people trying to ban games because they are like the real world....
The report said the game is not recommended for children of any age because of its ``extreme violence ... the ability to cause fear, illegal/harmful behavior, disrespectful language, sexual content, as well as some nudity.'' Oh look, you can cause extreme violence, fear, illegal/harmful behaviour, disrespectful language, sexual actions and nudity in real life! Maybe we should ban children from living as well Oh no! Little tommy has to take his clothes off to get ready for bed! What will happen if he sees himself naked?!?!? Oh the humanity!
Plus nowhere in the game have I seen nudity - rockstar know that there is no need for nudity in the game (Apart from satisfying the perverts), so they don't include it.
*slaps all the stupid people with an exceedingly large trout. Then wees on them from a great height*
*Starts thinking about creating a website to document all the stupid things people try to censor. And correct them, of course* |
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Andrew |
Message #22872, posted by andrew at 10:41, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22858 |
Handbag Boi
Posts: 3439
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I just can't be arsed |
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John Hoare |
Message #22880, posted by moss at 11:57, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22867 |
Posts: 9348
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*slaps all the stupid people with an exceedingly large trout. Then wees on them from a great height* How evil of you *Starts thinking about creating a website to document all the stupid things people try to censor. And correct them, of course* Actually, that's quite a good idea... |
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John Hoare |
Message #22882, posted by moss at 12:01, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22867 |
Posts: 9348
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Oh, and in answer to your argument, I don't think you could ever create a truly evil game  |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22884, posted by Phlamethrower at 12:28, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22880 |
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*Starts thinking about creating a website to document all the stupid things people try to censor. And correct them, of course* Actually, that's quite a good idea...
Perhaps with a snazzy name like Sensored.Com? The logo could be the mark left by one of those rubber 'CENSORED' stamps, but obviously with an S instead of a C. It could also include a W3C watch, to either a) Document all the sillyness of the W3C or b) Add to the Sensored Hall Of Fame all the sites that claim to be compliant but aren't. However I can't be arsed running a full blown web site to do with it But I'm sure a section of the playpen could be used to spread the Good Word 
Oh, and in answer to your argument, I don't think you could ever create a truly evil game Remember that providing the impression of being an evil game is all that's needed, and that could be done through any way you feel, such as subliminal messages and brainwashing. E.g. in A Clockwork Orange, he was brainwashed into thinking that violence is bad... but what's stopping someone from making a game which brainwashes people into thinking violence is good? Plus virtual reality could be used to make it more immersive |
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John Hoare |
Message #22891, posted by moss at 12:35, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22884 |
Posts: 9348
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Perhaps with a snazzy name like Sensored.Com? The logo could be the mark left by one of those rubber 'CENSORED' stamps, but obviously with an S instead of a C. It could also include a W3C watch, to either a) Document all the sillyness of the W3C or b) Add to the Sensored Hall Of Fame all the sites that claim to be compliant but aren't. However I can't be arsed running a full blown web site to do with it But I'm sure a section of the playpen could be used to spread the Good Word All great ideas. Do it! I can help with the W3C silliness... once I've corrected my ofla.info holding page. Ahem.Remember that providing the impression of being an evil game is all that's needed, and that could be done through any way you feel, such as subliminal messages and brainwashing. E.g. in A Clockwork Orange, he was brainwashed into thinking that violence is bad... but what's stopping someone from making a game which brainwashes people into thinking violence is good? Plus virtual reality could be used to make it more immersive It all depends on the person though, doesn't it? I doubt you'd ever be able to brainwash me into thinking murder = good. Again, it depends on the person; therefore, the *game* isn't evil. |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22894, posted by Phlamethrower at 12:43, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22891 |
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Posts: 15100
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All great ideas. Do it! I can help with the W3C silliness... once I've corrected my ofla.info holding page. Ahem. I'll start as soon as I've, ur, revised for the four exams which all lie within one week of each other and start next tuesday
It all depends on the person though, doesn't it? I doubt you'd ever be able to brainwash me into thinking murder = good. Again, it depends on the person; therefore, the *game* isn't evil. Well of course it does - good/evil is all a matter of opinion, which is why the truly evil people would enjoy the game while everyone else would be repulsed by it (Or brainwashed into enjoying it ).
[back to Sensored]
Ooo ooo oo! I can include all the silly film classifications, such as that new submarine one with harrison ford... can't remember exactly what it was now, something like 'Contains grisly images and extended peril'. 'extended peril'???? gah! what do they expect? It's a blimin' submarine disaster movie! or are movie goers too stupid to work these things out for themselves?
[Edited by Phlamethrower at 16:40, 7/11/2002] |
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John Hoare |
Message #22897, posted by moss at 12:47, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22894 |
Posts: 9348
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[back to Sensored]
Ooo ooo oo! I can include all the silly film classifications, such as that new submarine one with harrison ford... can't remember exactly what it was now, something like 'Contains grisly images and extended peril'. 'extended peril'???? gah! what do they expect? It's a blimin' submarine disaster movie! or are movie goers too stupid to work these things out for themselves? Well, in that case I want to include the fact that the Red Dwarf I DVD is a 12, when there's nothing on it to justify anything more than a PG
With this kind of thing, maybe we can get the Playpen up and running properly |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22901, posted by Phlamethrower at 13:08, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22897 |
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Posts: 15100
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I've made a nice logo using solid colour, but can't find the right texture to make it look like it was done with a rubber stamp
But it looks like it'll stand out more as plain colour, so I'll leave it how it is for now
http://riscos.iswe.net/sensored.png |
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John Hoare |
Message #22905, posted by moss at 13:12, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22901 |
Posts: 9348
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http://riscos.iswe.net/sensored.png Very nice
Maybe someone should tell  |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22949, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:06, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22882 |
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Oh, and in answer to your argument, I don't think you could ever create a truly evil game *Decides to have another reply to this since it's a good comment*
For a truly evil game, you'd need several things:
1. The right hardware/software to run the game. Current efforts are probably too poor; as I said in my earlier reply, VR would have to play a big role. Not cheap VR though; proper VR, such as the system driving The Matrix. Except without the loopholes allowing people to bend the rules Of course the rules the game world is made from may be different from those in the real world. But that would negate my theory that the more real a game is the more evil it is; you'd have to have an idea for an evil game to find out whether the real world is evil enough or not.
2. The right development environment, typically some way of creating software by thought alone - e.g. 'I want the game to let you do *this*', and the right code is automatically added for you. Otherwise you'd spend several million man years writing and debugging code
3. A truly evil idea. Exactly how you'd come across one is a bit of a problem though; chances are you could get a good one by following a course of mental training, essentially brainwashing yourself into being completely evil. Of course there are hundreds of varieties of evil, so it is open to interpretation as to what evil is or not; there may not be a single Evil at all, just lots of different things called 'evil'.
As an example of something I'd class as evil, take the plot to the Alien film - the corporation know that there is a killer alien species on the planet, and know that it would give them a big technology boost if they could capture a live one and experiment on it. So they replace the ships medic with a synthetic, and (My memory is a bit fuzzy here so this is probably wrong) program the computer to bring the crew out of stasis when the pass the planet, with the excuse that it has detected a distress signal. Thus the crew will go down to the surface, get impregnated by an alien, the alien will kill them all (Apart from the synthetic), and the ship will return home with a live alien on board for them to experiment on. Therefore the example of evil here is willingly sending people to death at the hands of a violent alien species, which will of course involve lots of struggling, torture, pain, etc. for the people being hunted.
Then of course there's criminal evil, for example in Swordfish the hostages have explosives and packs of ball bearings strapped to them. If they move too far away from a designated area they turn themselves and anyone nearby into a nice mushy pulp of blood and metal. This is a method of insurance for the criminals - the hostages are too scared to run away, and the police can't do anything to get them back. The example of the evil here is obviously strapping the explosives to the hostages - they know that if they do anything they will die, if the police try to rescue them they will die, if the police don't meet any demands they will die, if the police kill the criminals they will die, if anyone near to them tries to do anything then they'll get killed by the blast from the other person, etc. Thus they are in constant fear.
This brings me onto another topic, outwitting the police and the current sniper attacks in washington. It's obvious that outwitting police forces can be seen as a game; plan it right and you'll get away with it. It'll also bring you great fame, even though no-one will know you in person. Thus if life is a game, and life can be evil, then a game based around life would be evil. |
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James Shaw |
Message #22952, posted by Hertzsprung at 17:10, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22949 |
Ghost-like
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/me collapses with the effort of reading so much text |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22957, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:13, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22952 |
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/me collapses with the effort of reading so much text |
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John Hoare |
Message #22978, posted by moss at 17:32, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22952 |
Posts: 9348
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/me collapses with the effort of reading so much text Just don't read it
I don't think a game can ever be truly evil, because you *choose* to play it, and can get out at any time. You deserve everything you get |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #22983, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:49, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22978 |
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I don't think a game can ever be truly evil, because you *choose* to play it, and can get out at any time. You deserve everything you get Yes, that's true. Of course, being a VR game it could take you over, ala the matrix - once you're in, you can't get out. The game could advertise itself as being nice and friendly, but once you plug in you can't get out and are subjected to lots of torture in order to satisfy some higher power. Which also highlights the type of evil evident in the matrix - farming humans for energy, which also has some irony to it since it was humans who blocked out the sun (And created the AI in the first place. And managed to convince the AI that humans are evil.) |
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John Hoare |
Message #22986, posted by moss at 18:08, 7/11/2002, in reply to message #22983 |
Posts: 9348
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So basically, the evil is in the marketing. Well, we all knew that anyway |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #23135, posted by Phlamethrower at 23:45, 10/11/2002, in reply to message #22986 |
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The BBC talk sense!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2419007.stm
I was going to rant on about how governments are corrupt, but, erm, well, OK then
Democratic governments are corrupt by nature. Their one aim is to stay in power, not do their country (or the world) good. If staying in power just happens to include doing the world good then it's a happy coincidence.
Unfortunately I don't have any perfect examples to give since things haven't got too bad yet, but let's have a look at Australia. They refuse to give an adult rating to computer games, thus making uncesored copies of GTA3/VC impossible. So called evil games that cause people to go on killing/crime sprees aren't wanted, right? But any computer game related deaths are only the tip of the iceberg when compared to other causes such as smoking and drinking. So why doesn't the government ban those? What good does alcohol/nicotene actually do to people? Absolutely nothing. So why won't they ban that? Simple. Money and the support of the public. The government and industry in general makes tons of cash from selling death to other people, and so many people are reliant on it that any government that tried to ban them would soon be voted out or overthrown. So rather than do their country any good, they decide to play it safe and do things which will keep them in office another few years.
The moral of this story? Democracies are evil, because although people have the choice to have their country run the way they want, people often don't know what's good for them. Therefore a good old dictatorship is better; have one person, who knows what he's doing, guide the country without any risk of losing power. This way he can make the decisions that really count.
/me runs off, having just opened the gates to a political mine field. |
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Mark Quint |
Message #23158, posted by ToiletDuck at 10:01, 11/11/2002, in reply to message #23135 |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2438695.stm
^ there's an issue to rant about |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #23190, posted by Phlamethrower at 12:24, 11/11/2002, in reply to message #23158 |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2438695.stm
^ there's an issue to rant about Gaaaarh
/me decides to take it apart word by word...
By Nick Childs The BBC are using subliminal messages to suggest that we kidnap children! Quick! Ban that name! Won't somebody please think of the children???
A computer game devised by the US Army has come under fire from parents anxious that it glorifies violence. Well, duh! If it made violence look horrific then everyone would be too scared to join, and the country would degenerate into a heap of spineless shits that are taken over by another country every other year or two because they're too scared to do anything about it. At the end of life comes death. Get used to it.
The shooting part of the game is so realistic, the computer screen even moves in time to the digital soldiers' heavy breathing. This either means that they've invented a motorised monitor, or have been doing something that other games have been doing for about four or five years now. How realistic.
"Every day I drop him off at school I know that he's at greater risk because even some of his classmates as well as others in the general population, train obsessively on these shooter games." Note how the article doesn't actually say what the parent believes his child is at risk from. "Oh no, my son may come in contact with someone who plays computer games!"
And, for many parents, these virtual images of marksmanship are too close to reality for comfort so soon after the terror spread by the recent Washington sniper shootings. Which is why the parents are able to block the website using numerous pieces of free software, or regularly check the childs computer.
This is not, the army insists, virtual sniper training. So a game that includes a sniper training area isn't training snipers? Quite.
"The correlation between the ability to manipulate a mouse and the ability to actually fire accurately on a range is quite a bit distinct, otherwise we would not have real soldiers training at real ranges as part of basic training", says Paul Boyce from US Army Public Affairs. At last, something that makes sense! |
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Andrew |
Message #70801, posted by andrew at 01:27, 21/10/2005, in reply to message #23190 |
Handbag Boi
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I've just found what looks like a superb website on British space projects. Isn't the decline of British presence in space (possibly excepting the Beagle2) one of the saddest stories ever? I think so.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/6133/
[Edited by andrew at 02:37, 21/10/2005] |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #70802, posted by Phlamethrower at 01:38, 21/10/2005, in reply to message #70801 |
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I've just found what looks like a superb website on British space projects. Isn't the decline of British presence in space (possibly excepting the Beagle2) one of the saddest stories ever? I think so. You call that a lengthy essay? |
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The Icon Bar: The Playpen: The lengthy essay thread |
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